"STORY" By Robert McKee FOr those of you who do not know him, he is the legendary master of screenwriting craft The book itself is just as phenomenal. Though it is screenwriting related, I don''t see how it won''t help any story developer. I suggest all the writers read it twice, before attempting to transform an idea into a story. (Please excuse mispells. My monitor is aged and blurred. I am actually blind typing, since i can''t distinguish between a "w" and an "e".)

quote: Original post by skybrother
"STORY" By Robert McKee
FOr those of you who do not know him, he is the legendary master of screenwriting craft

For those of you who have not been screenwriting for over ten years, Robert McKee is what we call in the industry a 'send up', it's what you get when you can't get the talent you want, so central casting 'Sends up' whoever they have.

Robert McKee couldn't make any significant money or awards in the industry from his peers, which is the real litmus test of legendary mastery, of which in the screenwriting trade, there is probably only two in all filmwriting history, Joesph Menkowizc for "Citizen Kane" and William Goldman, "Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid, Marathon Man, All the President's Men, Absolute Power"

Robert McKee, however, has only done four television episodes of "Mrs. Columbo" (The wife of the guy who's in jail) and a german TV biblical story. Robert McKee has no film credits in the Internet Movie Database, with the sole exception of a film he did about himslef. Hmmm, wondered if he captivated that audience with a project called, "Hey, I wrote a few teleplays", and "I appeared as a guest on a TV show once."

What Robert McKee *does* do with mastery is self promotion. His method of writing he designed is simply a rearticulation of writing and plot development that existed far before he ever came on the scene, and all he has done to make a name for himself is to convince others that he has any talent, credibility and significance as an artist whatsoever.

If you peruse the archives of alt.writing.screenplays, the definitive newsgroup populated with working screenwriters from all over the world, his name is nothing but a joke and a screenwriting version of "Let's make money in real estate, let me show you how." And two hundred dollars later, you have heard an amazingly motivational promotion of somebody who will sell you five more kits once they've got you good and hooked, and you will still end of having to do the work yourself.

That's the deal with writing, and that's what everybody won't admit, you have to do the work yourself. There is a system, but it is far from proprietary claims Robert McKee may have. Dozens of writers have dozens of systems being sold dozens of ways long before Robert McKee came along and far after he will be gone. One of the first things that you try to do in show business is try to convince other people you are an authority in your craft, and the only resource they should consider.

This is always the perview of people who don't have the skill, talent and vision to let their work, and the critics, and the public, and their peers speak for themselves. Don't be fooled.

If you want to really, really know how to screenwrite, there are really only a couple of books out there, and thousands of films. The four books I will recommend, to stem this west nile virus perpetrating itself as significant technique or approach from infecting the game development writing commmunity are: (and I speak from the position of having three films produced myself, as well as having written scripts for over fifteen years now)

1. The Elements of Screenwriting: A guide for film and television writing, by Irwin R. Blacker

2. Screenplay: The Foundations of Screenwriting, by Syd Field. This man's book is responsible for lauching more screenwriting careers than any other according to Norman Lear, one of the great living writer/producers, and dean of the USC school of film and television.

3. The Screenwriter's Workbook, by Syd Field

4. This one will be hard to find, but a gem: Film Scriptwriting, by Dwight V. Swain, Professor Emeritus of Screenwriting, USC School of Film and Television.

And while I am clearing up this infection, let me correct another myth, screenwriting and gamewriting are very, very closely linked, as both are visual stories, both require pace to keep audience interest, both have a beginning middle and end, though one is linear and the other is interactive, so study of the screenplay method of storytelling, also known as filmic storytelling, is well, well warranted.

Robert McKee is a cancer on the art of writing.

Adventuredesign



[EDIT - just fixed up the quote, hope you don't mind. Kylotan]


[edited by - Kylotan on September 21, 2002 3:11:15 PM]

There are many other books which are hmm like standards for some writers, for example The Elements of Style, however if you are in to screenwriting Story is good and also Crafty Screenwriting and perhaps The Mega Hit Movies. As you can see there are many, but still one thing you always will need is your imagination........

Daniel Westerstal
http://www.writers-hub.tk

quote: Original post by PHRICTION
I'm very curious about what you have written, adventuredesign.

Well, let's see. I wrote a little story called the supernova sweepstakes, which was filmed and produced by Ross MacKenzie, of the Brooks Institute in Santa Barbara. IT was a far future sci fi piece.

I wrote another story called the bottom line, a near future sci fi piece. It was made by Steve Sfetku, of terminator credits

I wrote a story called small blue shadow for curv studios in marin, a gen x take on Plato's the cave (not my concept, work for hire), the producer/animator did not want to pay attention to little things like cinematographics, movement for the stage, etc., so I used my pseudonym in the credits. This method is how we writers tell the rest of the industry whether we thought the people we worked with were worth a dung, else we won't put our good name on the box top, as it were.

I currently have a feature film into Douglas Reuther on the lot a Paramount. It's about the death of the mystic at the dawn of the revolutionary age, and it's my first macabre historical fantasy. It was really kewl to write, but a major job.

I am also finishing up the first draft of a new novel, my first contemporary fiction piece, and it's been fun to write.

Last but not least I design and document my own adventure game, naturally.


I'm 43, have been writing almost all my life, and have always been a sort of an artist about it, not really worrying about the fame or money, but having a great time being creative, and getting good at what I do. I've sort've seen them come and go, and I'm still working. I think getting really good at what you do eventually leads to the money.

I know some people in the business, and I know the business, and trumpet blowing is not something I do unless it counts, and when it counts is when you are talking to serious industry people who aren't going to talk about you until after the production releases into distribution (if they got any), and then it's always in passing, as they are directors, and want all the attention for themselves.

Believe me, I am pretty good myself at shameless self promotion, as anybody who has been around the film business should be, but I reserve that for the people in the business who can get things made, or get you mentioned as a source of possible writing work. Those kinds of promotions never make it into the public until you've hit one out of the park, which I think will happen in a few years.

I used to put a lot of my work online years ago when the web was newer, some episodic sci fi's and mysteries, but I pulled them off as I needed to get the work into the hands of people who would pay me for it. As for the game design, I have lots of Non-Disclosure Agreements in place, and generally don't discuss details about my intellectual property. I do this not only because it's good professional practice, because good ideas are so hard to come by (and in this case, the finished manuscript is the good idea implemented) but also I've literally had work stolen before and seen it produced. That'll never happen again. Most people take it the wrong way, but hey, if they were in the industry, they would easily understand.

If my plans work out, over the next couple of years, everybody will be aware who I am and what I do. But if it doesn't happen, at least I've enjoyed the heck out of creating something I really dug. Since writing itself is tough, I'm always glad to help out anyone who wants to sincerely produce good work with my experience and in some cases, techniques and approaches of my own design. I should do something about my profile, but I have to go to the coffee shop now and work on a new chapter whilst ogling el hotteras. :D Just remember the sage advice I wish was mine: you write your own ticket.

HTH,
Adventuredesign




[EDIT - quote fixed again -- Kylotan.]

[edited by - Kylotan on September 21, 2002 3:14:05 PM]

IMO, _Elements of Style_ sucks. That''s the Strunk and White one you mean, right? I detest that book.


Here''s the bibliography of books I ended up using when I wrote my paper about plot and story. (There''s a slightly older version of the paper and some replies here on gamedev. I can post the latest version if anyone wants to see it.


Works Cited
Brooks, Peter. Reading for the Plot: Design and Intention in Narrative. New York: Alfred
A. Knopf, Inc., 1984.
Bywater, Ingram. Aristotle on the Art of Poetry. New York: Garland Publishing, Inc.,
1980.
Cooper, Lane. An Aristotelian Theory of Comedy With an Adaptation of the Poetics and
a Translation of the ‘Tractatus Coislinianus’. New York: Harcourt, Brace, and
Company, 1922.
De Sousa, Ronald. The Rationality of Emotion. Cambridge: MIT Press, 1987
Dibell, Ansen. The Elements of Fiction Writing: Plot. Cincinnati: Writer’s Digest Books,
1988.
Fludernik, Monica. Towards a ‘Natural’ Narratology. London: Routledge, 1996.
Goldman, L. R. Child’s Play: Myth, Mimesis, and Make-Believe. New York: Berg, 1998.
Lesser, Simon O. Fiction and the Unconscious. Boston: Beacon Press, 1957.
Newton, Steven E. The Thirty-Six Basic Plots
http://www.io.com/~jlockett/RPG/HEGGA/Stuff/frp-plots.html 6/29/00
Pavel, Thomas G. The Poetics of Plot: The Case of English Renaissance Drama: Theory
and History of Literature, Volume Eighteen. Minneapolis: University of
Minnesota Press, 1985.
Pitkin, Walter B. How to Write Stories. New York: Harcourt, Brace, and Company,
1923.
Prince, Gerald. Narratology: The Form and Functioning of Narrative. New York, Muton
Publishers, 1982.
Rossi, Terri. Wordplay Columns: Screenwriting Column 12: It’s Been Done
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp12.Been.Done.html 6/29/00
Schwartz, Ursula Verena. Young Children’s Dyadic Pretend Play: A Communication
Analysis of Plot Structure and Plot Generative Strategies. Amsterdam: John
Benjamins Publishing Company, 1991.
Storey, Robert. Mimesis and the Human Animal: On the Biogenetic Foundations of
Literary Representation. Evanston, Illinois: North Western University Press, 1996.
Tompkins, Jane P., ed. Reader-Response Criticism: From Formalism to Post-
Structuralism. Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1980.
Works Cited
Brooks, Peter. Reading for the Plot: Design and Intention in Narrative. New York: Alfred
A. Knopf, Inc., 1984.
Bywater, Ingram. Aristotle on the Art of Poetry. New York: Garland Publishing, Inc.,
1980.
Cooper, Lane. An Aristotelian Theory of Comedy With an Adaptation of the Poetics and
a Translation of the ‘Tractatus Coislinianus’. New York: Harcourt, Brace, and
Company, 1922.
De Sousa, Ronald. The Rationality of Emotion. Cambridge: MIT Press, 1987
Dibell, Ansen. The Elements of Fiction Writing: Plot. Cincinnati: Writer’s Digest Books,
1988.
Fludernik, Monica. Towards a ‘Natural’ Narratology. London: Routledge, 1996.
Goldman, L. R. Child’s Play: Myth, Mimesis, and Make-Believe. New York: Berg, 1998.
Lesser, Simon O. Fiction and the Unconscious. Boston: Beacon Press, 1957.
Newton, Steven E. The Thirty-Six Basic Plots
http://www.io.com/~jlockett/RPG/HEGGA/Stuff/frp-plots.html 6/29/00
Pavel, Thomas G. The Poetics of Plot: The Case of English Renaissance Drama: Theory
and History of Literature, Volume Eighteen. Minneapolis: University of
Minnesota Press, 1985.
Pitkin, Walter B. How to Write Stories. New York: Harcourt, Brace, and Company,
1923.
Prince, Gerald. Narratology: The Form and Functioning of Narrative. New York, Muton
Publishers, 1982.
Rossi, Terri. Wordplay Columns: Screenwriting Column 12: It’s Been Done
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp12.Been.Done.html 6/29/00
Schwartz, Ursula Verena. Young Children’s Dyadic Pretend Play: A Communication
Analysis of Plot Structure and Plot Generative Strategies. Amsterdam: John
Benjamins Publishing Company, 1991.
Storey, Robert. Mimesis and the Human Animal: On the Biogenetic Foundations of
Literary Representation. Evanston, Illinois: North Western University Press, 1996.
Tompkins, Jane P., ed. Reader-Response Criticism: From Formalism to Post-
Structuralism. Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1980.
Works Cited
Brooks, Peter. Reading for the Plot: Design and Intention in Narrative. New York: Alfred
A. Knopf, Inc., 1984.
Bywater, Ingram. Aristotle on the Art of Poetry. New York: Garland Publishing, Inc.,
1980.
Cooper, Lane. An Aristotelian Theory of Comedy With an Adaptation of the Poetics and
a Translation of the ‘Tractatus Coislinianus’. New York: Harcourt, Brace, and
Company, 1922.
De Sousa, Ronald. The Rationality of Emotion. Cambridge: MIT Press, 1987
Dibell, Ansen. The Elements of Fiction Writing: Plot. Cincinnati: Writer’s Digest Books,
1988.
Fludernik, Monica. Towards a ‘Natural’ Narratology. London: Routledge, 1996.
Goldman, L. R. Child’s Play: Myth, Mimesis, and Make-Believe. New York: Berg, 1998.
Lesser, Simon O. Fiction and the Unconscious. Boston: Beacon Press, 1957.
Newton, Steven E. The Thirty-Six Basic Plots
http://www.io.com/~jlockett/RPG/HEGGA/Stuff/frp-plots.html 6/29/00
Pavel, Thomas G. The Poetics of Plot: The Case of English Renaissance Drama: Theory
and History of Literature, Volume Eighteen. Minneapolis: University of
Minnesota Press, 1985.
Pitkin, Walter B. How to Write Stories. New York: Harcourt, Brace, and Company,
1923.
Prince, Gerald. Narratology: The Form and Functioning of Narrative. New York, Muton
Publishers, 1982.
Rossi, Terri. Wordplay Columns: Screenwriting Column 12: It’s Been Done
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp12.Been.Done.html 6/29/00
Schwartz, Ursula Verena. Young Children’s Dyadic Pretend Play: A Communication
Analysis of Plot Structure and Plot Generative Strategies. Amsterdam: John
Benjamins Publishing Company, 1991.
Storey, Robert. Mimesis and the Human Animal: On the Biogenetic Foundations of
Literary Representation. Evanston, Illinois: North Western University Press, 1996.
Tompkins, Jane P., ed. Reader-Response Criticism: From Formalism to Post-
Structuralism. Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1980.

I am just curious, do you guys have any opinion on "The hero with a thousand faces" ?
Would you consider it useful, or is it too theoretical ? I havent read it myself, but since you are quite into writing (S&&S I already knew, but adventuredesign, too )

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
IMO, _Elements of Style_ sucks. That''s the Strunk and White one you mean, right? I detest that book.

I think Adventuredesign wrote ''Elements of Screenwriting'' in his post, not ''Elements of Style''...

_________________________
The Idea Foundry

I remember being recommended a narrative format book by J.M.Stracynski (the guy who wrote Babylon 5). I forget the name of the book, but I seem to remember that its just a format and page structure guide, and doesn''t actually teach you how to write good. If anybody has seen this one yet, can you give me a "second opinion" on it?

-> Will Bubel
-> Machine wash cold, tumble dry.

quote: Original post by Tacit

Original post by sunandshadow
IMO, _Elements of Style_ sucks. That''s the Strunk and White one you mean, right? I detest that book.

I think Adventuredesign wrote ''Elements of Screenwriting'' in his post, not ''Elements of Style''…



It was Sigmaent who wrote _Elements of Style_.

As for _The Hero with a Thousand Faces_, I haven''t read it, nor do I write hero-monomyth structured stories, but from the information amazon has on it it seems to be in line with Propp and Campbell and whoever wrote that one about "damn good fiction with the power of myth".