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Hunger to Write

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17 comments, last by sunandshadow 21 years, 3 months ago
Just as a benifit, here''s Addy''s post with the quote bracket in. My way of contributing something to the discussion I guess.

quote: Original post by adventuredesign
adventuredesign - Well, this is very interesting. Before I reply, would you mind explaining what the Harvard method is and how your TOMA/database works?


The Harvard method simply put is an exacting definition of the problem. Some say it is the first step in problem solving. There are books on it out there that go into excruciating detail about it, and they can illustrate the formal approach. I just analyze what data I view and ask myself, "Is the problem clearly defined here?", and that does half the job. It won''t work for more complex problems, but then you''d have to apply criteria anyway, and that is where the formal approaches apply.

As far as the database works, it''s derived from something I learned in my very first database design class: before you create one table, think about you data.

Well, that was a tall order for me, because I think and work about a lot of stuff. Besides game design, I write for TV (commercials, interstitials, PA''s, show concept proofs and executive summaries, etc.), film (screenplays, treatments, outlines, character bio''s, exec summaries, pitch docs, queries, etc.), industry (business plans, ad campaigns, creatives, process docs, etc.) -- you get the picture.

What it boiled down to was that I wanted to cover everything I created, no matter what the subject category, and not let anything slip through the cracks. That span of activity, per se, became the column heading for my row of columns at the top of the DB. Then I broke down by level of complexity (you can arrange it anyway you want as long as you define yourself) of the project (a novel takes longer to dev than a commercial, and has more support and research associated with it, thus it is deeper down the row in that genre or area column), and last but not least the third dimension of the data is related to time (e.g.; how far along the project is in terms of it being completed, final draft submissible copy).

Once I defined the scope of my endeavors, activities and aspirations, then I began associating all creative production activities (conscious or sub) with their relative category and project row (or folder, more precisely, as it is not an excel spreadsheet per se, but a directory tree structure similar to Windoze Explorer).

Three marvelous things happen when this construct is applied. One, you have a place for everything, even if the folder is names ''morgue'' (a very old tradition in writing for things we find interest in but have to bury until we see where it fits in, then it is ''resurrected'' LOL), and this means you miss nothing.

Two, it prevent the predelection of humans to avoid closure and completion by showing you at all times what you''ve got and where it is at in the process (I think this is more closely associated with the human addiction to wonderment; but that is another thread), and three, it''s a plain old graphical representation of what you represent as a human creative entity, and what you have accomplished while in the warm and vertical fleeting moments we entities enjoy.

So it keeps you on track, you lose nothing (unless of course you failed in discipline to write it down and file it later; but these are the earmarks of the professional), and it''s a comprehensive and finite management tool for your career.

TOMA feeds this construct by presenting to your awareness the thoughts and ideas that come up during the day or night. This we recognize behaviorally as going, "Oh, I thought of something just now, I think I''ll jot it down." It is immaterial whether or not this thing we just thought of is relative or even a priority to anything we are currently involved in. What is material is that the record is created for the database (you''d be quite surprised what crashing two plots that were going nowhere individually into each other can manifest, but that is another discussion), and the record you create finds it''s way methodically and in a timely manner into the database, even if you are only filing it in a folder named Misc./misc.

I actually have a folder named that. You will have to find your own naming convention, and I venture it may be more flavorful than mine.

The point here is that by working in this way, you create the trust that has always been lacking between you and your incredibly far more powerful, far more intelligent and far more creative subconscious mind that if it goes to the trouble to come up with something, no matter how trivial it may seem at the time *consciously*, you are going to honor yourself and the creative process by not dismissing it as a lesser being may, but instead consider it significant enough to do the due diligence and write the thing down.

I am touching on a very important point here, one that may effect your creativity for the rest of your life, so pay attention: we tend to dismiss our subconscious processes almost exclusively in our ''rationalizations only'' waking mindsets, and this discounting and tossing out what bubbles up from where we have no control, or have given no credibility tends to piss off the subconscious. If you were really sensitive and self aware, you would see that this is actually self abuse, but that is a wide, wide other discussion. LOL

Our whole culture and civilization has historically discounted, diminished and swept under the carpet or discredited the very thing that makes us protean to begin with, IMO (getting past archetypes to the protean self is another thread also, tyvm).

After all, who''s got time for incomplete and uncomfortably revealed deeply intuited data? It has no practical, immediate profitable or exploitable value, so what possible value can it have. This has been the POV towards our subconscious long before the word evolved in the dictionary.

Just like humans to squander resources as if they were unlimited and controllable.

Rare, unique and courageous individuals discovered within themselves this fount of info, and started giving it it''s due, and as they began the relationship with this part of the self, it began to get less and less pissed off that it''s contributions to consciousness were being dismissed and discarded, and just like people, it warmed up to the idea that it was being respected, listened to and given credibility.

Voila, protean thinking emerged, and creativity was out of the gate and in the (human) race.

What is distinctly different from honoring these contributions from deep within ourself, and working with a process we cannot control (frankly it kind of scares me that this does not work unless you give up control, but I''m still corporeal and don''t plan on dissolving through evolvement into the etheric quite just yet :D) and all other known development processes is that you have to be patient, disciplined and above all else at a high level of trust in order for it to work on the level it''s capable of operating on.

Now, as a creative entity, I''ve seen many, many sides of development. I''ve stayed up all night to draft three times a twenty one page script based on a dream to my conscious literary satisfaction, stumbled down to the coffee shop in the early light to revel in my creative feat and fortune, and literally have a director tell me they would make it before the second cup of coffee was done, to long term projects of epic story scale that have taken literally years (this last screenplay took six months to write, but seven years to research and ferment) to complete.

The bottom line in either type of dev scenario was that I was patient and trusted the process enough to know my onboard wetware would do the job if I was a, using it properly, b, trusted it, and c, was on good terms with it.

I think those three things must be present, along with the aforementioned construct if you are to be capable of all the creative things desired or necessary that you want out of life.

What we are talking about here is creative development and methodologies, not jumping both feet first into the black depths of the subconscious mind. Of course, the degree of innovation is reciprocal to the amount of resistance it encounters, which is why I am a writer. I am solely responsible for the content and context of my market viable or not market viable output. I choose how to configure the system (did somebody mention success is a system?) of creative production so that it suits me, and serves me, so I can serve the audience, lest we forget too quickly greatness lies in humility.


Frankly, I can think of no higher freedom choice. And, I can also tell you from direct observable experience very, very few people, even creative human beings, will go this far in foundating their careers or skillsets. Part of the problem lies in acceptance (which arises before this in the dismissing of the idea because it has no immediate, practical applications) that the undefined or underdefined thought is not what our expectations desired (boo hoo, expectations are the bane of culture and civilization in most cases anyway), and the other part of the problem lies in the fact that if it did get out there was a way for this to work more powerfully and for everyone anywhere, why then, many artists would not be able to put themselves on a pedestal because they somehow can hack away at a creative process most other people find too much work.

And yes, it is hard work. True creativity is in everyone, and to manifest it everywhere would simply ruin the perception that only the lucky or special can access and use it. That would sure burst a lot of bubble of self aggrandizing perceptions, but then again, preservation of those perceptions have led to most of the exploitation, suffering and abuse you can think of or name. We could have to stop using words like genius and special and jedi if that happened. Oh pity.

I''ve been studying and developing creativity for a very long time, and I''m certain just like the guy who can take anybody off the street and turn them into a real estate millionaire over the weekend with no money down, I could take you and any one of your projects, and not only litmus test it for validity as developmet worthy, but help you complete it in less time, at better quality, while simultaneously supercharging your productive creativity process that the only things that would prevent you from heartily accepting such an offer is that a, I''m booked, and b, it wouldn''t have quite the same magic feeling about it anymore after we were done. That''s a quick descent from the altitude of wonderment.

Sorry for the soapbox. Hope this helps.

Addy

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Sorry about that, I just hit quote and start typing. I think this is something the interface does with the persistent data, cause I ain''t doing anything special cept writing.

Always without desire we must be found, If its deep mystery we would sound; But if desire always within us be, Its outer fringe is all that we shall see. - The Tao

Hehe Dont be sorry, I totally understand,
plus it''s nice to see someone that can write
even lengthier posts than me given such a short
question !

I find it fascinating that given your experience
in writing, you still seem to come to the conclusion
that the creativity is not really a specific thing
that some individuals have, but rather an untapped
potential we all possess.
I say this because it''s precisely the kind of things
I endlessly repeat to my discouraged students, or to
colleagues who really give me more credits than I
deserve. I am no genius at programming, I just had
more experience in computing (I am on computers since
the age of 9, messing with code since 12, and am now 24)
and much better teachers than people have where I am now.
The whole difference between me and them, as I keep saying
is that when I do a program, I know exactly what I want to do

It''s quite funny you mention the issue of clearly enuncing a problem, as it''s the most important lesson I learned in Maths
throughout the years, and it is still the central axis of
what I teach others. A French poet (Boileau) wrote :
"Ce que l''on conçoit bien s''énonce clairement,
Et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément."
"What is well conceived is enounced clearly
And the words to say it come easily"

And funnily enough, it works (for me) for computing, for writing
for painting/drawing/sculpting... the real difference between
the expert/artist and the novice is the transition between
"proto idea" and the actual implementation. Knowing how to use
the tools at your disposal, what language to use, how to
use a paintbrush, etc.

But for some mysterious reason, self denial blocks all this.
How many freaking times have I heard "but I cant do this !
When you do it it looks easy but I just cant do it!".
Awww, it reminds me of myself when I was 16 and had awful
troubles in Maths. The troubles are not with the Maths,
or with my brain not understanding principles, but with
my brains being restrained by lack of self esteem.

In fact, it''s funny ''cause I have a folder that
I call "capharnaum" where I store everything and anything.
Stuff like Hagakure, On War that I found on line, next to
"Kissing Hank''s Ass" (a funny satire of religion), next
to jokes and various unsortables items I come across while
wandering the Net.
I have been doing that for years, in fact. I keep all
my drawings, doodles, beginning of ideas, concepts.
It''s a bit like a graveyard, in fact. And once in a while
I''ll go and see what I can do with all this, and other times
I''ll go and have a laugh at how much I have progressed.

Fun to see that despite our different backgrounds we end up
with similar conclusions

Although I would love to know how you guys remember your dreams.
The only dreams I remember are the dirty kind that are no use
whatsoever, although I find it amusing that I can
actually control them in a semi conscious state.
But I just never remember the other type of dreams...
no bloody idea what''s going on in my head at night :/

Another thing I would like to mention, and to ask, in fact :
do you have a Muse ? Or more clearly, what do you think is
the importance of inspiration in the creative process ?
My main problem is my dependance to inspiration, but as you
mention, I think it''s just a restraining mechanism I impose
myself for some mysterious reason...
I''d love to see your opinion though.

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

I find it fascinating that given your experience
in writing, you still seem to come to the conclusion
that the creativity is not really a specific thing
that some individuals have, but rather an untapped
potential we all possess.

>I believe it is. It''s up to the individual to recognize it within themselves and begin the discovery process.

Fun to see that despite our different backgrounds we end up
with similar conclusions


>Indeed. Enlightenment does not care by which route you arrive.

Although I would love to know how you guys remember your dreams.

>This I can help with. It all boils down to the first five seconds. For about five seconds after you wake, the dream is still impressive enough for recall. Reaching for a pen or pencil and paper is all that is required, and a little focus/recall. Beware tho, if you drop that pencil or pen, it''s over. That is how fleeting dreams are. Tape the pencil to the pad. All the dream journalers recommend this, because it''s too critical not to mention and apply.


Another thing I would like to mention, and to ask, in fact :
do you have a Muse ?

>I used to think so, but nowadays I think it is just part of the undiscovered self.

Or more clearly, what do you think is
the importance of inspiration in the creative process ?

>It can be critically important, but I think that criticality is relative to the type of creative person you are. Just as there are seven types of intelligence, there are different types of creativity. In my early years as an artist, I would stop everything I was doing if inspiration presented itself. That is internally. Externally, I think inspiration can be found almost anywhere depending on your powers of observation. As I grow older, and have learned plenty about business, IT and extrinsic things, I now look for my inspiration in humans.

>Another important thing is that inspiration (as it is termed) is also extremely critical in the formative years of your creativity. Why? Using Internal combustion engines as a analogy, an individual inspiration is a single piston firing in your motor, providing so many foot pounds of torque for you to get down the road on a particular project.

Paying attention to inspiration is like training your engine to fire on all cylinders like a healthy fully operating engine should. It must be trained in order to combust optimally. Once they all run together, one is in a state of flow.

Oftentimes, your engine will stop running after awhile and you will wonder where the time went because it flew by so quickly, and further, you will be amazed at how much you just produced creatively, and you feel like you were barely paying attention to anything.

I outlined ten novels on 3 X 5 pads one afternoon while waiting to see the doctor. What was a four and a half hour wait seemed like just barely enough time to get it done. That does not mean I was intelligent enough to stop myself from publishing them for free on my website, which thank god, I took down.

My main problem is my dependance to inspiration, but as you
mention, I think it''s just a restraining mechanism I impose
myself for some mysterious reason...

>You may be consciously repressing more than one cylinder from firing at once. I suspect the reason is the fear one can slip into when one realizes that they are no longer calling the shots, and the process is guiding their moments. You can always tell the younger artists because they cite inspiration. Older, more mature artists (this is not a qualitative reference) simply sit down and do it. It''s more transparent because it is more familiar and easier to surrender to something you can''t consciously control. I call it ''letting the muse amuse herself with me.'' I think great acts of creativity, or being able to develop great abilities in creativity, are hugely dependent on internal self cooperation. This phenomenon persists even in a world full of drama queens.

I''d love to see your opinion though.


Always without desire we must be found, If its deep mystery we would sound; But if desire always within us be, Its outer fringe is all that we shall see. - The Tao

Hi again - sorry it''s taken me so long to reply to this, but I''ve been trying to "define the scope of my endeavours, activities, and aspirations". Well, not all of them, just the ones relevant to writing fiction, I can do the ones relevant to art and the rest of my life some other week. I looked through all my old stories and thought about my favorite books and anime, and tried to make a list of what I was most interested in writing about and what problems I had run into in my attempts so far. I came up with about two and a half character archetypes that I really like, which suggests to me that I need to work on developing the third. I came up with a couple of proto-plots which were ideal for exploring my favorite themes, and tried to describe my ideal story climax and resolution. All of which still doesn''t give me a clear path toward creating a large work of fiction, but it''s helpful to have all your building materials laid out in front of you. So, take a look at what I came up with and tell me what you would suggest I do with it.

Themes:
- A difference of thought between two genders, cultures, and/or species; adapting to changing one of these (e.g. living in a foreign culture, living among aliens, pretending to be the other gender, or getting physically transformed to be an alien or a person of the other gender) The procass of adaptation would include such interesting barriers as differences in language, culture, biology, and habit. This change makes a good initial incident, or incident to start the second plot arc of a two or three arc story.

Your gender role, sexuality, social role, personality, and etc. are all performative, not mandated by your society; you have to find what’s good and right for you and live that way, without being afraid of the reactions of others.


- Aesthetics of contrast: love as a satisfyingly dramatic character dynamic, love for the mental fiction you create based on another person, complementarity, xenophilia, the essential mystery and otherness of the love object (including virtual people like androids, AIs, gender impersonators, people who live an act, etc.) Satisfying this principle is as simple as having one character be tall and one short, one golden-skinned and one moon pale, one light-haired and one dark-haired, etc.; however, it is also as complicated as choosing two to five main characters whose personality attributes all balance out in such a way that working together they can stand against all the difficulties the world or society may throw at them.


- Hierarchy, (e.g. dominance, submission, slavery, being kept as a pet, assertiveness, self-reliance, freedom of thought) Some must follow and some must lead; it can be right and fulfulling to do either of these things, depending on your personality.


- Ethics of love re: requitement and lack thereof, monogamy vs. polyamory, loyalty, passion vs. fondness, posessiveness, etc. Love has inherent value even when it is not requited. Because of this:
You should look for love everywhere, not just where it’s socially acceptable
You should try to seduce someone you love even if you are not what they are normally sexually oriented toward
You should permit someone to love you even if you can’t requite them
You should love someone (but not try to be possessive of them) even if they can’t requite you


- The ethical oblications of philosophical self-management especially including the duty to compensate for the inherent injustice of the world and human fallibility; extending from this, the essential purpose of society is seen to be the protection and provision for the happiness of its members - knowing this, how should an individual act?

Answer, an individual must find those with complementary strengths (i.e. love objects) and these people must cooperate to performatively create a family, a mini-society, which should function to maximize the happiness of all its members. Having a productive and content role in a family and your society is kind of the ultimate victory condition and plot resolution.

As part of this performative creativity it is important to resist normalcy - in many stories (Beauty and the Beast, Yentl, I My Me Strawberry Eggs, etc.) a strange situation is normalized at the end to make things ''socially acceptable''; this is wrong, and the main characters should realize this and cooperate to resist pressure to assimilate. To be an adult one needs to know how to ignore and resist social pressure and generate your own society which is adjusted to best meet your needs.




So, here we have most of the elements for a plot. Character A from society (or gender role) X unexpectedly finds themselves in society (or gender role) Y, along with Character B, a natural-born but outcast or low-man-on-the-totem-pole member of society (or g. role) Y. Probably we will need a Character C from Y, this one a high-ranking leader, and perhaps a character D still remaining in X. Character A''s abilities to act and adapt will be tested. Because of Character A''s different background he will be in a unique position to sympathize with or appreciate B. Character C will, as leaders do, try to control and manipulate the interesting resource of Character A, and later Character B when it becomes clear that Character A finds something interesting in B. Character D could either be used in several different interesting plot ways. So each of characters A, B, and C will learn something from the others'' styles of philosophy and resistance, and go through character growth that will enable them to first help form a family, then weather the societal resistance to their non-normal family.

Somewhere in here there''s room for characters to comically struggle to keep secrets, resist being attracted, plot seductions, and all sorts of other amusing things.



So, my question now is, how should I go about deciding what would be the best details with which to flesh this outline out?

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

totally OT.
I dont understand why on Earth you dont play Roleplaying games... and I mean anything but D&D here, there is literally hundreds of RPGs out there to let you experience and experiment with alernate personae. You really should give it a try someday. (I have a feeling you would enjoy playing one of the World of Darkness series)

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
i wanted to reply to some of the other things that have come up in this thread.

Muses - I don''t have one, I don''t think I''ve ever had one, but then again I''ve never been sure exactly what a muse was supposed to be, other than a greek goddess. I''ve seen fanwriter''s treat a particular character that they are enamoured of as a muse - which whould make the muse a mental representation of an ideal love object, but that doesn''t seem to agree with the traditional use of the word... I don''t know.

Dreams - as adventure design says, the key to remembering dreams is going over them in your head or on paper immediately after you wake up. Your ability to put ideas into your long term memory doesn''t work properly while you''re sleepy, so you have to keep the dream in your short term memory by concentrating on it until you wake up enough to remember it permanently.

10 years, 20 years - adventuredesign, you estimate 10 years to acquire all the concepts you will use in your writing and have them begin developing into a superconcept. That''s interesting. I began writing in summer of 1994 - so I should theoretically be at this point by summer of next year? Maybe, because it''s been quite a while since I ran across any new elements to write about. But I''m not sure what a superconcept would be, or what it would feel like to think about. Perhaps you could illustrate?

Roleplaying - Ahw, not sure if you meant me or adventuredesign. Myself, I have roleplayed a little, but I don''t have time to do so now if I want to get any of my other projects done. Roleplaying is kind of like group storytelling, which I enjoy, but I find it two annoying to mess around with numbers and some players who may not be interested in the story part; basically I don''t have enough creative control as a roleplayer. I have a more fun creating a story by myself, and even more fun if I get to work with one or two cowriters I''m really in tune with.

Writing for the People - Adventuredesign, I think this is the one thing you said that I really don''t agree with. I have little interest in writing for people who can''t create their own art. I write for myself, I write what I would be thrilled and joyful to read if someone randomly handed it to me. A distant second, I write for other writers and very experienced and intelligent readers of my genre, and that''s it - I feel that it would hobble my writing if I tried to write for average people. I can barely even talk to average people. One of the things I find most frustrating about writing is that I can''t find anyone who''s close enough to my ideal audience to be a great beta-reader.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

S&S, For those elements of plot you mentioned, I might suggest doing it from the perspective of just one of the characters. Or maybe first person but switch from character to character. Even if your story doesn''t turn out written that way in the end, you wind up in the mindset of each character. Each character would have different perspectives on what would be important, which affects their actions, which affects the situation between A,B,C, & D. Maybe it won''t completly flesh out the details, but you''ll have more to work with.

Is life really that formulaic? That situation between A,B,C, & D sounds familiar.

quote: Muses - I don''t have one, I don''t think I''ve ever had one, but then again I''ve never been sure exactly what a muse was supposed to be, other than a greek goddess.


Yeah, when I asked about Muses, I forgot to mention the fact that I never ever heard of a woman having a Muse...
strange thing, as I doubt it has anything to do with sexism, for a change.
For me, a muse is someone that by her simple presence make everything else worth doing. Someone you can look at and feel inspiration flow through your system like a drug through your veins. For the last five years I have had the same, although since she is not my girlfriend, it''s kind of a strange situation.
Additionally, the fact that a muse is usually an idealised person begs the question of whether or not it is wise to risk this idealisation by actually frequenting that person...

quote:
Dreams - the key to remembering dreams is going over them in your head or on paper immediately after you wake up.


I might in fact have much more control than I thought I had.
It often happens that I''ll have one dream so clear that I dont really consider it a dream anymore, as I feel it''s more of an interactive movie than anything else. Like last night, I dreamt of scorpions (my starsign) and me taming them (how grossly symbolic...I know), at some point a big one is sitting right on my shoulder, which me as a spectator/director of the dream thoguht lacked some sort of... style. So I changed it to the big scorpio sitting on my head, as some sort of crown.
Similarly, if I dont like where the dream is going, I''ll usually be able to steer it another way. Or I''ll "replay" a scene if I really like it, or if something wasnt the way I like it.
usually at some point I''ll start losing control of the dream, and I''ll kinda run out of ideas or motivation, replaying the same scene and finding it boring or something. This is the signal that I am going to wake up.
But I dunno why I always feel like I dont have as many dreams as other people. Probably be because I dismiss them so easily, in fact, and because I feel that the control I exert over them makes them less, well, subconscious emanations.
I''ll have to look into that.

quote:
Roleplaying - Ahw, not sure if you meant me or adventuredesign. basically I don''t have enough creative control as a roleplayer. I have a more fun creating a story by myself, and even more fun if I get to work with one or two cowriters I''m really in tune with.

Yes I meant you (although I would love to know if addy has ever tried ?).
And let me tell you, I think you shouldnt be a player, but a storyteller (dungeon master, whatever name you like).
There is no greater control than that of writing not just stories, but adventures. Detailed characters, complex backgrounds (the environment), convoluted plots, intrigue, drama, enigmas, etc.
Of course, the hard part is to find players.
So far I have always been pretty unlucky with those. If you really want to do anything else than dungeon crawling, you need mature player who can have *fun* while playing seriously and getting involved. As I was reading last night, you want to get away from the teenage alienation/angst/power trip fantasies that RPG allow to fulfill and explore more interesting things like loss of innocence, the things that make a human human, and a monster monstruous, dig into the various shades of grey between good and evil, well, this sort of stuff. (At least, some RPG can allow for this sort of stuff, VAmpire specifically, which is why I mention it).

Plus the fact that writing scenarios for players is so much more difficult (and so much more rewarding, of course) than writing a scenario for a computer game

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

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