Ergh ... I don''t mean to bristle but I am not surprised at how most ''professional'' writers and artists work, due to having worked closely with these professionals at various times.
Perhaps it was easy for me to be misunderstood when I said I work on inspiration alone. This is true. I rarely edit my content, but that is because I have little or no need to.
I have never had to learn formats, etc, because they have always come natural to me. Formats and structures are necessary, yes, but there are times when I like to get rid of them all and just write.
A techincal writer is a poor writer, is my opinion. I don''t see a problem in having a text that switches back and forth, repeats certain parts of itself or over-emphasises something. If it is done in such a way that it doesn''t bore me, then to me it was meant to be there. I often find that such things are the author''s way of conveying something to their readers.
I was going to write more, but I''ve forgotten what, due to my tiredness.
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Author
JSwing :
ah, I don''t want to dissapoint you, especially because of all the explanations you are giving... but unfortunately I think we have reached this deep down level of Personal Opinion. I usually had a lot of trouble with my Fine Arts teachers because of that. They explained me something, I understood what they were talking about, but just couldn''t see why on Earth I should care ...
I think I''ll just live with the fact that some people (at least you), find the text a bit too shaky
Sorry, but I just don''t think there is much to change. I will make some changes that I agree with, but that''s it. Many thanks for the input anyway. It''s better to have someone eplain properly his opinion than simply tell "too many POV in your text" !
Sarazen :
Well, then I think we are alike. If the style is a bit far from perfection, then I''ll just rejoice myself in thinking that my writing has a personality of its own As long as you don''t fall asleep in the midst of the text.
And as long as you want to know more ... that, in my opinion, is the main thing. If this little piece of text got anyone hooked, wondering what on Earth is a Hoon, or what a Soulsinger does for a living, then I''ll consider this exercise a success
youpla :-P
ah, I don''t want to dissapoint you, especially because of all the explanations you are giving... but unfortunately I think we have reached this deep down level of Personal Opinion. I usually had a lot of trouble with my Fine Arts teachers because of that. They explained me something, I understood what they were talking about, but just couldn''t see why on Earth I should care ...
I think I''ll just live with the fact that some people (at least you), find the text a bit too shaky
Sorry, but I just don''t think there is much to change. I will make some changes that I agree with, but that''s it. Many thanks for the input anyway. It''s better to have someone eplain properly his opinion than simply tell "too many POV in your text" !Sarazen :
Well, then I think we are alike. If the style is a bit far from perfection, then I''ll just rejoice myself in thinking that my writing has a personality of its own
As long as you don''t fall asleep in the midst of the text.And as long as you want to know more ... that, in my opinion, is the main thing. If this little piece of text got anyone hooked, wondering what on Earth is a Hoon, or what a Soulsinger does for a living, then I''ll consider this exercise a success
youpla :-P
quote: Original post by Sarazen
Ergh ... I don''t mean to bristle but I am not surprised at how most ''professional'' writers and artists work, due to having worked closely with these professionals at various times.
Perhaps it was easy for me to be misunderstood when I said I work on inspiration alone. This is true. I rarely edit my content, but that is because I have little or no need to.
I have never had to learn formats, etc, because they have always come natural to me. Formats and structures are necessary, yes, but there are times when I like to get rid of them all and just write.
A techincal writer is a poor writer, is my opinion. I don''t see a problem in having a text that switches back and forth, repeats certain parts of itself or over-emphasises something. If it is done in such a way that it doesn''t bore me, then to me it was meant to be there. I often find that such things are the author''s way of conveying something to their readers.
Sarazen, do you only write for yourself? And why are technical writers bad? If they are able to say the same things in fewer words, or use more accepted terminology and grammar to do so, then they are going to be preferred by almost all people to a style that lacks focus and perhaps uses language features incorrectly. Reading prose that was written by someone with a poor control of the language is very awkward for a lot of people, including me. Something may not bore you, as a writer, but readers tend to be far less tolerant of a lot of the little poetic flourishes that some writers like to put into their prose.
If you''re writing for yourself, then do whatever the hell you like. But you need to remember that writing for an audience is a 2-stage process: the writing, and the reading. If you make the reading awkward by throwing out a stream of consciousness with little heed to structure or grammar or economy of text, then reading it will be less enjoyable.
Author
Kylotan : so ? would you think this paragraph moves a little bit too much as JSwing ? Or is it not noticeable, and you are quite happy with the text ?
JSwing : BTW, I understand your criticism, and take them as such. I say you''re picky, but that''s fine by me, I do the same when I comment on painting and other Fine Arts works my friends do (or me), since I practice too.
When you are "in the know", it''s always harder to refrain from being picky, and it''s most of the time vey useful, though sometimes I won''t agree with the comments anyway, I still listen to them... so don''t think I am making you some sort of bad guy here
JSwing : BTW, I understand your criticism, and take them as such. I say you''re picky, but that''s fine by me, I do the same when I comment on painting and other Fine Arts works my friends do (or me), since I practice too.
When you are "in the know", it''s always harder to refrain from being picky, and it''s most of the time vey useful, though sometimes I won''t agree with the comments anyway, I still listen to them... so don''t think I am making you some sort of bad guy here
I''m glad if you found anything useful in my comments. I take no offense if you disagree. They are only opinions, and I''m pickier than most.
Let everyone know if you continue the work. I''d like to see how it turns out.
Sarazen, writing very well off the top of your head is a rare talent. Most folks have some talent, but their writing skills develop through working at it. Revising and editing are a big part of that, and learning about what works and what doesn''t from a technical perspective helps to hone an author''s skills.
JSwing
Let everyone know if you continue the work. I''d like to see how it turns out.
Sarazen, writing very well off the top of your head is a rare talent. Most folks have some talent, but their writing skills develop through working at it. Revising and editing are a big part of that, and learning about what works and what doesn''t from a technical perspective helps to hone an author''s skills.
JSwing
Kylotan, I write for me and for anyone that wishes to read my work. I have never had any complaints from anyoen reading my material ... quite the opposite. I often get e-mails from people complimenting my work, as well as friends, etc etc.
Saying the same thing in fewer words doesn''t classify a technical writer. I have to confess, I much prefer descriptive pieces.
Jack was very happy.
Jack''s smile spread from ear to ear, filling his face with a radiance that belied his immense feeling of happiness.
Yeah, it''s a bit far fetched, but it was a deliberately written piece ... still, I know what I prefer. Besides, how can you speak for almost all people in the world that read?
I have to be reminded of abosultely nothing.
I don''t see where, at any stage, ahw''s piece of writing is awkward to read. Perhaps a simpleton might find it so, but I had no trouble at all.
Furthermore, whether I am writing for myself or others, I will always do whatever the hell I like. Does a painter, when painting an abstract piece of work think to himself, ''No, I won''t put that line there - My audience might not like it.''?
If he does, I don''t think he should bother calling himself an artist but more a commercial maggot.
It all comes down to your basic perception of what art is, I am afraid, and everyone has their own opinions on that.
JSwing: Then I am indeed blessed with a rare talent, although I know at least four others in my town alone that do it ...
Saying the same thing in fewer words doesn''t classify a technical writer. I have to confess, I much prefer descriptive pieces.
Jack was very happy.
Jack''s smile spread from ear to ear, filling his face with a radiance that belied his immense feeling of happiness.
Yeah, it''s a bit far fetched, but it was a deliberately written piece ... still, I know what I prefer. Besides, how can you speak for almost all people in the world that read?
I have to be reminded of abosultely nothing.
I don''t see where, at any stage, ahw''s piece of writing is awkward to read. Perhaps a simpleton might find it so, but I had no trouble at all.
Furthermore, whether I am writing for myself or others, I will always do whatever the hell I like. Does a painter, when painting an abstract piece of work think to himself, ''No, I won''t put that line there - My audience might not like it.''?
If he does, I don''t think he should bother calling himself an artist but more a commercial maggot.
It all comes down to your basic perception of what art is, I am afraid, and everyone has their own opinions on that.
JSwing: Then I am indeed blessed with a rare talent, although I know at least four others in my town alone that do it ...
Writing is writing. My mind just said that to me. It also said, a technical writer is not bad, nor is a descriptive poetic writer, it just opinions. If one can say a techinical writer is a bad writer, then they are not a good writer. If one can say a poetic/descriptive writer is bad, they arent a good writer...
But my heart tells me different. My heart tells me that there is more important things to do than writing.
(aka love)
My soul, on the other hand, tells me to do both. It tells me I am a good writer, and to stick with it. It also tells me I have decent knowledge, and could write technically or any other style.
So as for judging people for thier type of writing, your all wrong. Anyway, I just put my 1 1/2 cents in for te heck of it.
"I''''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''''Urden
But my heart tells me different. My heart tells me that there is more important things to do than writing.
(aka love)My soul, on the other hand, tells me to do both. It tells me I am a good writer, and to stick with it. It also tells me I have decent knowledge, and could write technically or any other style.
So as for judging people for thier type of writing, your all wrong. Anyway, I just put my 1 1/2 cents in for te heck of it.
"I''''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''''Urden
quote: Original post by ahw
Kylotan : so ? would you think this paragraph moves a little bit too much as JSwing ? Or is it not noticeable, and you are quite happy with the text ?
I didn''t think it was quite so ''bad'' as JSwing made out. I was mainly just making a point with Sarazen. Clarification of which will be in my reply to his post below.
The only thing I would say about your text is that some things take 2 lines where you only needed one. Examples:
Your version:
"-But he is a ... Seeker !!!"
The disgust in her voice was almost tangible."
My version:
"But he is a ... Seeker !!!", she said, the disgust in her voice almost tangible."
There are also a few other grammatical errors in there which you''d want to edit out before presenting them to the world. I know some people will say that the quality of the story is not influenced by the quality of the language, but then it''s like looking at a beautiful picture through a dirty lens. It will irritate a lot of people, annoy some, and stop a few people from even bothering.
quote: Original post by Sarazen
Saying the same thing in fewer words doesn't classify a technical writer. I have to confess, I much prefer descriptive pieces.
Jack was very happy.
Jack's smile spread from ear to ear, filling his face with a radiance that belied his immense feeling of happiness.
That's not quite what I meant. I would never want to sacrifice a deep description for something less just to be shorter. But a lot of text written by inexperienced writers can be expressed in a better way that is more succinct. I gave a short example in my reply to Ahw how you can say the same thing more economically (in terms of sentences, if not in terms of words), which tends to read better, without removing any of the crucial terms that make up a good description. I am mainly talking about people who repeat things unnecessarily, or who end up using 7 short words to get across something that 1 longer word would have expressed. Besides, I'd disagree that your 2 examples say the same thing. When I said the same thing, I really did mean precisely the same thing.
quote: Besides, how can you speak for almost all people in the world that read?
I don't, but generally the consensus is towards a 'standard' English... that is what people have become comfortable reading in text, and if you break from that, you're going to be hailed as amazing by some of the more 'art' inclined members of the community, and largely ignored by most people. e e cummings, anyone?
quote: I don't see where, at any stage, ahw's piece of writing is awkward to read. Perhaps a simpleton might find it so, but I had no trouble at all.
No: that piece was largely fine, but could do with a little tweaking, that's all.
Note also the intent of his piece: "and yet that could be understood by newbies" . This implies that simpletons are perhaps part of the target audience, which is important. Although you go on to dispute this...
quote: I have to be reminded of abosultely nothing.
...
Furthermore, whether I am writing for myself or others, I will always do whatever the hell I like. Does a painter, when painting an abstract piece of work think to himself, 'No, I won't put that line there - My audience might not like it.'?
If he does, I don't think he should bother calling himself an artist but more a commercial maggot.
Sorry to say it, but this smacks of elitist arrogance. If you're going to ignore all consideration for the audience, then no, you're not writing it for them at all. You're writing it for yourself and hoping that someone else might like it. This is all well and good, but doesn't make you somehow 'better' than someone who is trying to write to suit the particular needs of a certain audience.
I suppose Michelangelo was a 'commercial maggot'? Yes, he did art for money. Even the Cistine Chapel was done on request, specifically for a given audience. And going back to an earlier point, what about Leonardo Da Vinci, whose brilliance was down to his technical attention to detail? Check out his diagrams of helicopters and stuff. If a technical writer is a poor writer, then surely a technical artist is a poor artist? I expect you now consider Leonardo Da Vinci to be crap on this basis?
If anything, the Renaissance, being a classic period for art, was driven by close attention to detail and study of the subject matter, not loose and airy definitions of being artistic and ignoring anyone's opinion but your own. A good technical backing helps you deliver your message in a much more effective manner, whether that is prose, poetry, painting, music, whatever.
Edited by - Kylotan on August 26, 2001 11:29:03 PM
Author
quote: Sorry to say it, but this smacks of elitist arrogance
It does, doesn't it ?
I remember I used to sound like that when I started Fine Arts.
Unfortunately it takes quite a long time to realise it, and even longer to change your opinion about the respective use of technical and more innate skills. It took me a long time to realise that changing a tad bit my art to help people "get it" is not equivalent to selling my soul to the Great Capitalist (hard to translate), but in fact, is quite satisfying. The danger as always, is to be able to keep the balance and not lose your personality by subduing to other people's desires ... simply look at music : bands start with a personaly style, then adapt to be liked by more people ... then you get those who forsake everything and become bland conformist and, in a word, boing; on the other hand, those who can retain their initial originality become legends. I think this is basically what he is afraid of.
Like I said, I used to speak like him.
Compromise is a difficult skill.
I don't think any of us will convince him anyway; it's a bit like the Matrix, you have to see it for yourself...
About grammatical errors, ah
I am glad someone mention them. I take as a compliment the fact that not many pointed them out 'cause you see, I am French, not English. Once in a while I do little syntax errors or phrasing mistakes, most of the time due to an uneasy translation. For most part I think and write in English, but some idioms are a tad bit harder to get across...I think this is very visible in the tendency to use Big Words where most english speaking people would come up with some made up thing on the fly. Or some phrases that I will build the "other way around" (english makes use of passive form much more than french, french uses a lot of subordinates, things like that...)
But then again, I am a verbose person, whether I am speaking or writing or even drawing, for that matter.
This translate in all I do, and as you notice, I end up saying things twice in different ways to get points across (I am a lecturer, so I guess it's a bit of a habit), or sometime because the rhythm I "hear" demands it.
Typically, I agree with your example where I could mix the two sentences into one, this is good english writing. But it's not the rhythm I "hear"
Ah, and you are very right to point out that it's this kind of little mistakes that prevent people from enjoying what you initially want to give them. That this kind of thinking that made me realise that at some stage you have to think for your audience.
Compromise in the style in order to allow your audience to understand your initial intent is a Good Thing (tm).
Compromise in order to *please* your audience is a Bad Thing (tm) (well ... IMHO)
Anyway ... see ? I did it again. I can't help but write tons and tons ...
Ah, and yes there will be more, as soon as I get a new Muse to give me the inspiration
Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
Edited by - ahw on August 27, 2001 4:13:12 PM
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