The best screenplay I''ve ever encountered in film was American Beauty. Not often I''d say that about a mainstream film, but just thinking about the depth of the story leaves me in shock. Naturally, the quality of the actors involved helped, but I think this movie could have been good without it.

It was the only film I''ve ever seen that managed to incorproate virtually every emotion into one giant, freeflowing entity. As a writer, that''s a movie you sit down and deeply analyze.

A few other quality flims I recommend to rookie writers are Snatch, Fight Club, Sneakers, The Third Man(and any of the other good Orson Welles film), The Game, and To Kill a Mockingbird(naturally a condensed list). The key is understanding what actually makes a good story, without ripping off ideas from somebody else. With that said, it''s also vital to keep an eye on overpriced blockbuster movies to see what to avoid when writing. The Final Fantasy movie, Mission Impossible 2, Rush Hour 2, Final Fantasies 6, 9, 10, and Unbreakable are all movies and games that should be analyzed to see what NOT to do when writing. Essentially, when writing, do not think money.

Lastly, I''ll have to agree that mimicing epic stories is definitely not the way to go, ESPECIALLY for a game. Doing so loses the individuality of the characters, instead making the cast resemble some bloated group of unrealistic fools from the pages of some irritating midieval work of literature.

Well, those are my two cents on everything.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Every good story takes ideas from other good stories.

True, but I think there''s a difference this and what Hundley called "ripping". 12 Monkeys was based on an old French still-motion film La Jetee, but they are hardly the same film. Ripping is caused by submission to a fear of straying too far from the design of the story that inspired you, or because of a lack of an original concept to graft onto it.

Tacit is absolutely right about your audience. Games have become no less a consumer-driven industry than music or films. You have your pop/hollywood stuff, and you have your alternative/arthouse stuff. Whether or not you want to make money, I think it''s important to have made the decision of which field you intend to play in.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Every good story takes ideas from other good stories.

EVERY good story? I''m tired of having this argument with other writers. Not EVERY writer sits there behind their computer stealing ideas from other writers. Sheesh. No wonder contemporary literature is so crappy nowadays.

Now, if you''re discussing story ELEMENTS, that''s a differnt thing all together. Some elements are universal, existing beyond the ideas of literature into reality. Taking those sorts of things is fine. Sitting down and deliberately taking a true idea existing in someone else''s work and sticking it in your work is not a good thing. The best stories I''ve read had no problem avoiding this.

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Final Fantasy had a much better story than most people recognize. It just had a few too many Asian storytelling elements which the North American audience is not familiar with. Sadly, it tried to please both North American AND Asian markets and ended up failing to please either.

Oh, so the asians specialize in lame stories with absolutely no characterization, relying solely on a virtually non-existent backstory. The movie was complete eye-candy. That''s what it''s intent was. Not to tell some brilliant tale, reminiscent of key works of Asian literature. It''s easy to stand behind the claim that "Americans don''t get asian story telling", but it doesn''t change the fact that, by standards in the english language, the Final Fantasy movie was horribly written.

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It''s fine to slam the quality of writing in mainstream blockbuster titles. Many writers do it, and frankly most of the time I''d agree with them. But there is another thing about writing that is important to keep in mind -- when writing a game story you are writing for a mainstream market. And it is about the money. Unless you''re happy writing a story for a game that will only appeal to a few hundred people...in which case chances are you won''t be writing very many more game stories.

This is true, but this mentality towards game writing is why games will never truly achieve the level of brilliance they otherwise could. Yes, you''re SUPPOSED to think money when you write. Why? To please the capitalists who are backing your project? To hell with them. Why can''t writers write TO WRITE nowadays? So what if they don''t make a lot of money from it. Game writers are no exception. The independent scene for videogames is growing. With key games scattered about, that just maybe weren''t intended for your average stupid American, you''re helping support the growth of something that could be great. If there are games that walk outside the lines(that aren''t complete shit), they will eventually get noticed. But if there are not any well written games, there''s nothing to get noticed. You''re just, as a writer, admitting defeat in the hopes of making a better living.

I don''t know about you, but that''s not how I work.

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I''d be curious to hear which irritating works of medieval literature you''re referring to.

Mainly the Epic of Gilgamesh(which, now that I think about it, probably couldn''t be classified as medieval anyway). Mildly interesting story, but completely unbelievable. I remember being irritated as I was reading it because this work of clear fiction was being used as historical fact. I don''t give a crap now(I''m actually quite amused at the notion now), but it pisses me off to see stories with completely flat characterization within stories with no entertainment value whatsoever. That is what I see an epic tale representing. Some tall tale passed down through the generations, with no sort of moral or point to the story. Just some godlike main character and some noble journey for him/her to go on. Rarely do you see stories like this with actual literary worth.

quote: Original post by Hundley
EVERY good story? I''m tired of having this argument with other writers. Not EVERY writer sits there behind their computer stealing ideas from other writers. Sheesh. No wonder contemporary literature is so crappy nowadays.

Now, if you''re discussing story ELEMENTS, that''s a differnt thing all together.

What''s the big deal about distinguishing between ideas and elements? It''s all the same to me. No-one is condoning a ''cut and paste'' attitude to writing, but reading or watching other stories will remind us of situations and concepts that can fit into our own stories. There''s a sliding scale between spontaneous originality (which quite possibly doesn''t exist) and plagiarism, and there''s no absolute cut-off point between the two.

quote: Yes, you''re SUPPOSED to think money when you write. Why? To please the capitalists who are backing your project? To hell with them. Why can''t writers write TO WRITE nowadays?

Because they want to earn enough money to continue writing? No-one''s saying they write to get rich. But if you love your art, you may have to make some small compromises to the real world in order to be able to afford to continue doing it.

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quote: Original post by Tacit
Oh please. That''s not at all what I meant, so don''t use my as a target for your writer''s frustration. It''s not a question of stealing ideas, it''s recognizing that all great works of literature rely on the same limited set of notions expressive of the human condition. This is how we can have a study called ''English Literarure'' that isn''t limited to navel gazing.

Then you misunderstood what I was saying to begin with. I didn''t mean a universal idea of humanity, I meant storylines, essentially. We don''t see truly new and innovative stories anymore(this was mainly in reference to the film industry, by the way). We just see recycled plot ideas. You can recycle philosophic and sociological notions as much as you want. Every good writer has a different slant on this sort of thing anyway.

quote:
Ah, so you''re an elitist. You feel only the enlightened should be able to tell stories. I''ve met your type. Explain to me what a ''true'' idea is. I''d really like to know. Don''t confuse the issue by creating artificial distinctions between ''ideas'' and ''elements''.

I suppose I didn''t clearly specify what I deem elements are in relation to ideas. Elements are the "limited set of notions expressive of the human condition" to use your own words to avoid confusion. Apparently my use of the word "universal" wasn''t telling enough. They''re something standard that typically should be at the basis of more stories, but aren''t.

I meant ideas as visible things located within the plot. The things contemporary audiences look for nowadays solely. I was talking about the Film industry, in how ideas are the only thing that perpetuates them nowadays. No actual social commentary or didactic edge, for the most part, just perpetuating garbage aimed at idiots. Am I wrong?

I don''t know where you get this Elitist crap from.

quote:
Hmmm...I see. So you feel only Western, or even better, only American writers know how to tell a story. Final Fantasy was pure eye-candy. And the story was far from perfect. But, I believe that it had more merit when one recognizes the quintessentially Asian themes that are held within. Things like the ubiquitous struggle between man (represented by technology) and nature (represented by spirituality). This was very clearly the subtext in The Spirits Within. You find the same topics treated in similar fashion in anime like ''Princess Mononoke'', ''Akira'', ''Ghost in the Shell'', and the two Patlabor movies, among others.

Don''t label me as, essentially, Xenophobic simply because the Final Fantasy movie was a piece of shit. You claimed that Final Fantasy was admirable because it utilized some painfully general asian storytelling technique and because Americans didn''t get this. You apparently missed the fact that the dialogue was non-existent and the progression lame and forced. I respect the fact that they were trying to say something important in the film. I just am disgusted by the fact that they did it so poorly, tarnishing the name of a fantastic series in the process.

quote:
We''re not talking about writing in general, we''re talking about writing for games. If you want to write stuff for the intelligentsia, then don''t write for games. At least, not in their current form. And I''m not admitting defeat about anything. It''s called realism, and working the system from within. I''ll be the first to admit that the stories in games need to be better. But you seem to be suffering from frustrated writer syndrome, and I think it''s clouding your judgment. You''re not the first writer to think these things, you know? And many writers more talented than either of us are currently working in the industry.

My judgment is not clouded. I simply disagree with your statement that you HAVE to cater to the mainstream market. You stated that either you write for the market, or your work will be shit and will be ignored.

"when writing a game story you are writing for a mainstream market. And it is about the money. Unless you''re happy writing a story for a game that will only appeal to a few hundred people...in which case chances are you won''t be writing very many more game stories."

In this you are completely discouraging game writers from trying anything new and innovative, saying that it''ll only appeal to a few hundred people. Maybe some of these stories would, but is that any reason to limit ones creativity simply to some mainstream audience? I don''t care if they are merely videogames. Give this sort of thing a shot rather than going for the easy money method of gamemaking. I''d rather die poor and hungry than sell my ideals to the capitalist trash compactor.

quote:
Personally, I find the medieval epics a great source for literary inspiration. And that you see no moral values expressed in these texts shows how little you actually know about the topic. I suppose you would characterize stories like Beowulf, the Arthurian cycle, the Song of Roland, Tristan and Iseult, the Decamerone, City of God, etc. as having no literary worth.
Epics present a culture''s fundamental values in the frame of a heroic quest. They are as much about morality as they are about history.

I appreciate what they say in the context of the hisorical period, but I find them too awestruck at the splendor of man to be paid too much attention(at least the ones I have experienced; there are probably others that don''t have such a viewpoint). Personally, I''m somewhat of a misanthrope, so I find myself unable to truly take the works seriously. I appreciate the fact that they are key stepping stones in the growth of the exploration of the english language, but nothing else. One can find just as much if not more morality in later works in the english language, so I wonder why you waste time on these at all.

Also, I was solely considering Gilgamesh when I was talking about having no morals. I do admit that others do have decent moral standpoints, although not actually profound.

quote:
I''m not sure where you studied literature, but I''m sure glad I didn''t go there.

Sorry I have a differing viewpoint towards literature. Maybe if I was as brilliant as you I could conform to the mainstream market more and produce pieces of crap like the Final Fantasy movie.